Intro
Scott Raven: Welcome to The Corvus Effect, where we take you behind the scenes to explore integrated self leadership and help ambitious family men build lasting legacies for themselves, their tribe, and their community. I'm Scott Raven, and together we'll discover how successful leaders master a delicate balance of career advancement, personal health, financial growth, and meaningful relationships. Get ready to soar.
Meet Steffan Surdek: From Software Developer to Leadership Innovator
Scott Raven: and hello, everybody. Thank you once again for joining us here on the Corvus Effect. I'm Scott, and today we are joined by Stefan Surdek.
Author of The Way of the Co Creative Leader, and a transformational coach who's been helping reshape leadership team dynamics worldwide. From software developer to leadership innovator, Stefan's journey shows us how vulnerability And collaboration can create lasting organizational change. He certainly has the experience to back it up with over 2000 hours that have aided his extensive speaking and training experience.
And we're going to get into the evolution of leadership that he has developed along the way. So Stefan, welcome to the podcast, man.
you know, let's just kick things off right where I left off, which, you know, I got a chance to talk to you offline and, you know, the old adage, uh, 10, 000 hours towards mastery. You've certainly put in thousands of hours coming from software development to leadership coaching.
And I think that's a great place for us to start our conversation in terms of that journey that you took. In order to build up this expertise that you're able to share with the world.
Steffan Surdek: So I think sometimes what surprises people the most is that I come from a background of software development. So imagine the geek that likes to isolate, that likes to do the work, that likes to push through stuff, be curious, learn new things. And, um,
Scott Raven: That was that, that was me back in the day. I started as a software developer, so I feel you.
Steffan Surdek: and at one point in my career, what I realized was, uh, along with technology comes the technology wheel. And you always need to learn that next thing ahead, and eventually what got kind of frustrating was in my work, I was, um, I was struggling to find new work at some points because, uh, I didn't have the latest and greatest, and I could learn it, wasn't a problem, but you didn't have the acronyms, so the recruiters just didn't pick you up, so I, I kind of got tired.
Scott Raven: It's, it's, it's hard to keep up and be on the bleeding edge.
Steffan Surdek: Yeah, and it's hard to be there all the time. So, um, I ended up being more of the big brother on the teams that I was on. So I ended up helping people better communicate, helping people better collaborate together. Uh, I was the guy, when I was working with teams, uh, from India, people would say, Oh, but they're not productive.
Somehow when I joined, they became productive, and it was just because I spoke to them.
Scott Raven: know what? That is certainly something that a lot of folks who manage teams, particularly onshore and offshore, talk about, and you phrase it as the Moses effect.
The Moses Effect: Creating Sustainable Change
Scott Raven: I have never heard it explained with that terminology. So help us all understand what the Moses
Steffan Surdek: So the Moses Effect is a term that I use as a consultant more than anything else. Uh, when I started in, uh, consulting, doing coaching, I used to struggle a lot because what happened was, uh, I would go in and the perfect conditions would, would happen. So the water would part, the waters would part, so to speak, and the perfect conditions would happen in the organization so I can come and do some magic.
But when I left, it all came back to the way it was before. And what I came to learn is because, as a consultant and a coach, I wasn't spending enough time teaching people the magic that I did. And I wasn't building their capacity, building their ability to do some of what I did, or at least to do some of what I do, in their own way, because I don't want them
Scott Raven: So the change has to be sustainable. It's not just you come in as the white knight and everything's great and then wait five minutes, the weather has
Steffan Surdek: No, exactly, and I've been there a lot in my career, especially at the start, so, uh, the way I've learned to work with teams over the years is to kind of slow down and take the time to build so that when change happens, you're also building little walls so that the water can't come back quite the way it was before.
Scott Raven: Yes, yes, yes. And it's very interesting because obviously you come from a technical background and have now moved into business and leadership. I've gone through much the same journey. I have found, as I look back at my journey, that a lot of what happens is. One side doesn't know what the other side wants.
So the technical people don't understand how this plays into the broader needs of the business. The business people don't understand the constant fires that technical team is fighting just to keep the lights on. And I'm curious from your own journey and your own consulting and coaching. How do you bring these worlds together, not just from a in the moment perspective?
But sustainable.
Steffan Surdek: So often what I try to do is I start, try to start with a conversation. So let's talk about how we're collaborating together, whether good or bad. Let's have a discussion around that and, and see what we want to do. Because often what happens is the business side is going to say, Oh, the IT folks They don't want to listen.
They just try to inflict whatever they want. And when you listen to the IT side, it's very similar. They say, Oh, the business side, they just make unreasonable requests, impossible requests, and, but they never try to be a good partner for each other. And they struggle to do that. So what I try to do is create conversations where we can create some awareness around how do we feel about working with each other.
And from there, we're able to take a look at things and say, okay, now where do we want to go? How do we want this relationship to be? Acknowledging that we've been bad with each other throughout all these years, and now we want something different.
Scott Raven: Yeah. I had a great, uh, technology leader who explained it to me in terms of, if you think of IT as the doctor and the business as the patient, both of them need to work together so that the patient is living the best life and that the doctor can't be too hard on what he believes the patient needs to do.
and vice versa.
Steffan Surdek: Yeah, no, exactly. And it's about the listening and the understanding of the other perspective. Um, you know, the, a very basic example, I remember, um, in one of the Agile teams I used to work with in the past, there was someone from the business that was working with an IT team to develop reports. And at the end of the project, the business person said, all I see is I click on this button and I get this report two minutes after, I never knew everything that was involved in between those two minutes, between the time I clicked and the time the report popped up.
And it's much more complicated than I thought.
Scott Raven: That's right. And you know, we often hear the expression. Don't tell me how the sausage is made. Just make a good sausage, right? There is a certain level in terms of co creation where you need to understand that process. And I know that's a big emphasis for you. Co creative leadership.
Co-Creative Leadership: Key Principles and Skills
Scott Raven: How would you define co creative leadership? And what are some of the key principles associated with it? Mm
Steffan Surdek: So for me, co creative leadership comes from, uh, all the work I've done with clients and all the work I've done in teams in general in my career in the past. Seeing that leaders didn't always know how to work well with their teams.
Scott Raven: Mm
Steffan Surdek: So, leaders often have the feeling that they need to know all the problems, have all the solutions, but when they do that, they're inflicting things on their team.
They're not really listening and paying attention.
Scott Raven: Yes. Lots of bias. Yep.
Steffan Surdek: And the way it started, ironically enough, I'd been talking about this in talks for a while, informally, and one night I was in Montreal with a user group, and I had a group of people ask me at the end of my session, so, what is the one thing that leaders need to know how to do better?
And I went on this rant for about two minutes, and I have the recording buried somewhere on the hard drive, and in the end, it ended up with, you know, it's very easy. In the end, the leaders need. to know how to co create with their teams. That's it.
Scott Raven: Mm
Steffan Surdek: And I started there, and that's how co creative leadership was officially born.
And after that, I wrote an article for Forbes, and someone saw the article and said, Hey, would you write about co creative leadership for our website? And I said, Sure. I said, what am I going to write about next? Oh, I know, the five key skills. Basically made them up. At that moment, for that article, I basically made them up, based on things I was seeing, things I was teaching, the leaders that I was teaching, and Nine years later, those same skills hold, hold true.
They're still
Scott Raven: let's, let's, let's go ahead and delve into those five key skills of a co creative leader. What are they? And more importantly, how are they applied to the best benefit?
Steffan Surdek: So the first skill is being a voice among many inside the conversation. So many leaders feel that they need to speak last in their team meetings because they say if I speak first, if I speak earlier, people will just take whatever idea I put out there and say, oh, yeah, Scott, let's go with that. Let's do it.
And, and so, And many leaders, that's not what they want to do. So, being a voice among many is around how can I bring an idea at any time, and people will challenge my idea. People will talk about my idea in the same way as if anyone else brought it. And another piece of being a voice among many is like recognizing what's my impact in the meetings.
What am I doing? What does it create? Am I shutting down people? How am I doing it? How can I recognize it? How can I take ownership of it? Then it's recognizing the contributions of the people in the meeting. Who speaks up more? Who speaks up less? Who should speak up more? How can I help these people be heard?
So I'm giving you like the Reader's Digest version, but that, at a high level, that's the
Scott Raven: skill because oftentimes people have their own orientation on extroversion versus introversion, particularly technology leaders who tend to be more on the introverted side, but they often have some of the most unique and creative ideas if They contribute them to the conversation.
So I'm hearing a key thing from you is to develop the culture and the open forum such that all feel that they can participate.
Steffan Surdek: Yes, that, and, and, you know, you can do that in different ways. So first of all, like I said, it's noticing yourself, then noticing the contribution of others, then it's building on the ideas of others. And if you can put. All of that together, you start being a voice among many.
Scott Raven: Now, some people are more prone to jumping on that bandwagon than others, but ultimately in co creative leadership, what I'm sensing is it works best when all are contributing. So how do you bring people into that environment who may be hesitant at first? Mm
Steffan Surdek: So here's the thing. Often when we talk about this, people think, Oh, it has to be magical. Steph talks about co creative leadership. Now everyone is going to join. No, it can take six months to a year. to build that culture, to build that environment, and it takes practice. So those people that don't want to speak up as much, one of the things I like to do is I'll have conversations with them offline, outside of the meeting.
And sometimes that's when they're going to share their, their brilliant ideas with me. And at that point, I'll go, okay, so Scott, what do you want me to do here? I think this is great. I think the hear, the team should hear this. Uh, I think Would you be comfortable bringing it up in the next meeting? And sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no, and when they say no, then I'll ask them, look, if I bring it up for you, and I credit you, and I hand you the mic, are you good?
And people say, sometimes they say yes at that point, sometimes they say no at that point, and sometimes they just want me to bring the idea as if it was mine.
Scott Raven: Mm hmm. Interesting. How does that relate? Because I know that we really focused on one of the five key skills for a co creative leader. How does that relate to some of the other elements that an effective co creative leader must have in order to make this work?
Steffan Surdek: So the second key skill, you should see the link right away with the question you just asked me, is unleashing the leaders around you. So, unleashing the leaders around you mean those people that are afraid to step up, how can I encourage them to step up? One thing that people forget, about leadership is the role of a leader is to create leaders around them.
Scott Raven: Absolutely.
Steffan Surdek: essentially what you're supposed to do, and you're supposed to be able to share your leadership. And sometimes you'll lead, sometimes you'll follow, and you kind of just naturally know how to do the dance.
Scott Raven: Mm
Steffan Surdek: And, you know, the big thing I, I find when you choose to follow is you choose to authentically follow.
I will support you, I will help you. It's not, I will let you go and potentially jump off a cliff and then I'll go, well, that was too bad. You know, you have to be there to support the people.
Scott Raven: Yes, yes. And it's a case that people will be more willing to take risks or things outside their comfort zone if they know somebody, particularly a person in a position of power and leadership, has their back. So that's just such a critical insight. What are some of the other skills that that co creative leader needs to have?
Mm
Building Capacity and Developing Leaders
Steffan Surdek: third key skill is developing capacity on your team. So, often, when we talk about building capacity, we're talking about developing the skills. And one of the. Big mistakes that leaders make is they say, Oh, I have a training budget. Oh, I pay for training for my people. Oh, that's okay. I'm developing my people.
I'm building the capacity. But that's one perspective. The one that leaders struggle with is around remembering what it means to be a learner.
Scott Raven: Hmm.
Steffan Surdek: So, you know, um, my son, uh, used to bowl in a league on Saturday mornings, and I used to go play with him on Sunday nights. And then eventually, with him getting coaching, and getting support, and me getting none, eventually, the child, surpassed the father, right?
Scott Raven: Uh, I, I love it when that happens. It happened very early with my son and me in baseball. Not that that bar was very high because I was atrocious at baseball, but the moment that he got better than me, I'm like, this is awesome.
Steffan Surdek: So when he got better than me, I said, okay, I don't want him to hold back. When he's playing with me, I don't want him to hold back because daddy isn't doing good. So I went to get a coach. I went to, I hired one of his coaches and I said, show me. And I spent an evening with him. And that night it was, for me, it was like an eye opener because he was showing me, you know, the proper steps.
where the timing aspects of the throw, because it's not just walking up there and throwing a ball. There's a lot more to it than what it seems. And at one point he used to tell me, Okay, now do this. And I try and then go, Nope, not working. Try again. And I, he tripped me up and I'd get all confused. And at one point I just laughed and he said, What's so funny?
I said, My God, I just remembered what the heck it meant to be a learner and what it is
Scott Raven: Yeah. And it's so ironic because leaders and people managers talk about this all the time in terms of there are times where you need to take a talented person and break them down to build them up into something bigger. Yet we don't apply that to ourselves.
Steffan Surdek: Yes, and when it comes to our organizations, somehow leaders think that because I delegated this to you, you're magically going to know how to do it, how to do it properly the first time. And, and that's just not true. That's just not even possible. So, The first part of building capacity is remembering what it is to be a learner and then it is accepting to be a teacher.
So in my book, I talk about three stages of doing that I like to talk about in this context when you're delegating. And the first one is doing for them. So if you have a short deadline, you're delegating, the person may not have the time, the knowledge, the skills to do it. So look. I'll do it as the leader and I'll teach you at the same time what I'm doing, how I'm doing, why I'm doing it this way, and I'll give you like a live demo, right, and I'll teach you.
The second stage is doing with you. So let's say we did this report, now we have another one coming up in two weeks. Maybe I'll ask you, Scott, which part do you want to do in the next two weeks? And you'll say, well, I'm ready to do A, B, C, but I'm not ready to do D and E, and I'm not sure about presenting all of this.
Okay, so I'll take this. We can share the presentation, the next time I'll let you do even more, and you know, gradually like that, what we're allowing,
Scott Raven: Absolutely.
Steffan Surdek: yeah. And the person learns to do it their way, and you get to see if they're not doing it quite the way you'd like. You have a chance to talk about it, to explain the why, but you always want, because you're delegating, it doesn't mean that people are gonna do work your way.
It's just that If you want them to take ownership, you need to give them creativity. You need to give them permission to do it their own way, too. Let's just delicate balance that we need to learn sometimes as, as a leader. And the third step is, um, letting them do it. So at, at that stage, okay, Scott, it's in your hands now.
And you call me if you need help. You call me if you need feedback, but I'm not going to interfere.
Scott Raven: Yep. And it seems very, very similar. To there's a construct called situational leadership, the first three phases of situational leadership to get to the final stage of you got this and I trust you and getting to the point that you have more I trust yous with your team, which allows you to preserve your most precious resource as a leader, which is your time, your energy and your focus.
That's got to be phenomenal in terms of the efficiency of all concerned. Mm
Steffan Surdek: Yep. And you know, I remember, uh, when I hired my assistant seven years ago, um, I hired her to help me get out of overwhelm. And, um, After a month, she said, Steph, I'm discouraged because I don't feel I'm making a difference. Uh, you know, you're giving me this work, now I'm doing this work, and I'm asking you questions, so I'm adding to your load.
And I told her, you know, it's all good because I don't want to do this anymore in six months.
Scott Raven: Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: So you have three to six months to learn, to ask all the questions you want,
Scott Raven: Mm
Steffan Surdek: and, and to find your ways of doing things. And after that, I expect these things, some of these things to disappear. So don't worry about the immediacy of it.
Worry, my goal isn't that. My goal is, three to six months from now, I'm not touching this anymore.
Scott Raven: hmm. Mm hmm.
Conversational Debt: Addressing Unspoken Issues
Scott Raven: You know, it's interesting, and I want to segue in terms of a two word phrase that you have, and this may have direct ties, may not, but you talk about this concept of conversational debt, and I want to understand better what it is and why it matters. Mm hmm. to the leader, to the team, to the broader organization.
Steffan Surdek: So the interesting part of bringing it up now is that we can talk about this in terms of building capacity as well. So we're still in the world of co creative leadership in some degree. What I call conversational debt are all those conversations that we're not having in our lives that we should be having in our lives.
And some of that can be with our spouse. Some of that can be with. with colleagues, with employees, no matter, I just lost one of my lights.
Scott Raven: Oh, you're fine.
Steffan Surdek: So, um, let me start that part again. So you can have these conversations with your wife, you get missing with your wife, with colleagues, it's everywhere literally in your life. So a very basic example of this is, let's say a team meeting at work, and you have someone that arrives at, the meeting starts at 9. 30, this person arrives at 9. 50, or 9. 45,
Scott Raven: Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: It irritates everyone! Everyone is angry about it!
Scott Raven: Yep. I'm
Steffan Surdek: No one says
Scott Raven: early. You're on time. On time. You're late. Late. Don't bother. Agree.
Steffan Surdek: And, you know, no one says anything, because they're expecting their leader to say something, and if their leader is overwhelmed, doesn't have time to have that conversation, doesn't have time to follow up, then it lingers. And once it lingers, what ends up happening is that someone else decides, Oh, look at that!
This is okay for Scott. I'm sure this is okay for me, too. And now you have someone else that doesn't show up on time, and then another, and then another, and then you kind of lose the breakdown and the discipline on your team. So, conversational debt is the art of having those unspoken conversations. And it's the art of seeing them.
Being able to see, this is a conversation I can have. So
Scott Raven: How would, how would, how would one engage in those type of conversations from a strategy perspective? Because I've got to believe that there is an art and a science to creating those types of conversations. Safe spaces to have that type of dialogue and it's got to be real. It's got to be authentic. It can't be I'm gonna, you know, gloss over what's really going on.
Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: it depends how you choose to show up as a leader, and it depends if you choose to show up from a place of blame or not. But here's an example of a situation I addressed at a client one time. So when COVID happened, and we had people working from home, um, Then you get to see everyone's background, right?
The Unmade Bed Dilemma
Steffan Surdek: And you get to see the rooms that they're in, you get to see a whole different side of people than what you usually get to see. And on one of the teams I was working with, what happened was there was someone that was in a bedroom, and they were getting on the daily meetings with the team, and the bed was It's always unmade behind them. So I was talking with the leader once, and the leader was kind of complaining about this, saying, Oh, why is this person doing this? It's not professional. It's not this. It's not that. I said, Well, why don't you talk about it with this person? And they, they kind of didn't because it was a bit of an uncomfortable conversation.
So one day I'm having a meeting with this person and my policy as a coach is if I don't see it, I can't comment on it.
Scott Raven: hmm. Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: And that day, I was in that meeting with this person, and lo and behold, behind me was the bedroom, behind me was the unmade bed. So,
Scott Raven: it up then.
Addressing the Issue
Steffan Surdek: so I told the person, I said, look, uh, I'd like to talk to you about something, but it's kind of uncomfortable for me to bring up.
But, uh, You're new to the workplace, and I don't know if you've noticed this, I'd like to share something with you, would it be okay? And the person says, of course. So I
Scott Raven: And that, and that, and that's key. Key is to ask for permission first. That is a key.
Steffan Surdek: exactly. Make sure you ask that permission first. So once I asked, the person said yes. My first reaction after was to tell the person, well, have you ever noticed what we see behind you?
Scott Raven: Mm
Steffan Surdek: you're on these calls.
Scott Raven: hmm. Mm
Steffan Surdek: And the person says, Oh, yeah, okay, I'm in a bedroom. And said, Do you notice the state of the bed?
Scott Raven: hmm. Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: goes, Well, yeah, I go, You know, if I didn't know better, I could think that you just got up. And I could think that you just jumped on the meeting getting out of bed.
Scott Raven: Right.
Steffan Surdek: And the person said, Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't notice this. And, you know, I'm not even in my room. I'm in my mom's room. So They just weren't aware. they became aware, we spent five minutes trying different angles of the camera to see what we could do, and then the person found an angle where there was like pictures on the walls, just changed a bit, and it
Self-Awareness in Leadership
Scott Raven: It's a, it's a big reason why, you know, we talk about this all the time here on the Corvus Effect. Self awareness is one of the three legs of the stool to effective self leadership with self belief and self accountability being the other two. You can't lead what you're not aware of.
Steffan Surdek: and you can't adjust, and you can't correct, and you can't dance with whatever you're not aware of in what you're doing. So, you know, with this person, once they knew, they just changed the camera and started doing that way. And so I'm with their boss like a week after our one on one, and I go, So, how is everything with this person?
And they tell me, Well, you know, um, Changed his view somehow, but now it's good. Everything is cool. And I explained the conversation I had and the person said it was that simple. Well, yeah, you don't need to create drama. You know, the person, the person felt I was looking out for them, not putting them down.
Scott Raven: razor applies to many things in life. Sometimes it's just one 30 second conversation in terms of the simplest solution being the best.
Steffan Surdek: Yep.
Conversational Debt in Teams
Steffan Surdek: So that's an example of conversational debt, but I see this with leadership teams too. I see leaders that want something to happen on their team, they don't tell their team. They kind of do something and they hope this is going to happen. And it
Scott Raven: we all know hope is not a strategy. There
Steffan Surdek: So, you know, I often tell the, the leaders, just make it clear.
Don't play games. Stay what you're, you would want to happen, even if it's not today, even if it's a longer term thing. Put your expectations out there so that people know what they're playing with and people know what you're looking for so that they can do what you'd like them to do.
Scott Raven: There you go. Let's focus in on those final two key skills of being a good co creative leader and really how they relate to lasting transformational. Organizational change to something you said at the open. Let's not turn this into Moses where the Red Sea parts. And then all of a sudden everything goes back to the way things were.
Dancing with the System
Steffan Surdek: So the fourth key skill is, I call it dancing with the system. So. Often, what happens is we create these big plans when we want to do transformation, when we want to do this big initiative, change initiative in our organizations. But the truth of the matter is, we do this kickoff meeting, where we talk about it, we present it, then we don't talk about it anymore.
And then six months after, we wonder, why the heck didn't anything happen? So, When you're dancing with the system, you can see your organization, your department, your team as a living, breathing organism. And when you do something, the system is going to react.
Scott Raven: Yes.
Steffan Surdek: So I don't know how it is in Atlanta if you have a lot of construction on the roads, but we have a lot in Montreal during the
Scott Raven: I mean, uh, most of the highways are deferred maintenance projects and we've got tons of constructions on the road these days.
Steffan Surdek: It's nice to know it's not just a Canadian thing.
Scott Raven: No, no, no, no, no. Trust me, you know, after learning our lessons, uh, about 11 years ago with snowmageddon and our roadway infrastructure not only being clogged up, but completely inefficient, right? Yeah, we're, we're working on it.
Steffan Surdek: So let's bring this back to dancing with the system. So, um, you know, when a road closes. Because of construction, what happens to the traffic? The traffic will, but it will naturally divert as well. The traffic will adapt. The traffic will go in another direction to get to their destination to a certain extent.
And, um, that's kind of dancing with the system. You're injecting something in the system and the system is adapting. So the
Scott Raven: I, I, I, I can, I can relate to this. So there's a major thoroughfare here in Atlanta where there was a accident, uh, a huge fire occurred underneath the bridge, uh, basically knocking the bridge out and weakening the supports. And that, because of that, all of that traffic, which came down this. Eight Lane Highway had to be diverted through local roads for about six weeks here until that bridge was reconstructed.
And that's just the picture that I have in my head in terms of that adaptation that you're talking about.
Steffan Surdek: Yep. And you see, again, concrete example when it comes to business. Many leaders will tend to, to speak and ask a question and answer their own question. And I often just suggest to these leaders, Well, how about you try injecting seven seconds of silence and just see what happens.
Scott Raven: Mm. Power of the
Steffan Surdek: that Yeah, and the first time that you do that, your team's going to look at you like, Is something wrong? What's happening to you? Are you all good today? Right? And after you've done that a few times, they go, Oh my God, we have time to think. He's actually interested in hearing what I have to say. And the team adapts. So, When you, you're dancing with the system, and this is one of my ways of, uh, one of the things that I learned as a coach, when I'd go to clients, I, you know, we kind of have an idea of what we were doing, but when I'm there one day a week or two days a week, I don't know what happened the other days.
So I had to come. read the room, so to speak, and then be able to say, okay, based on where we're at now, this is kind of where we need to go today and see.
Scott Raven: Excellent.
Steffan Surdek: as a leader, when you're able to dance, when you're able to see I'm injecting something, now I'm trying something, let me see how the system reacts. Oh, it's going nowhere.
Okay, now what do I do? Now, how do I adapt? And for me, it brought me a lot of patience. Um, because it became more of a game, how do you get to this place, versus a competition where you have to absolutely need to get there as fast as possible, it changes your mindset around it.
Scott Raven: And that's got to be one of the hardest things for a leader to do is to practice patience because there are so many demands that not only did they put on themselves, but that their superiors, or if you're high enough in the organization, the stakeholders putting on you that you're expected to achieve.
They don't care. about what you're doing. They're like, where are the results at the end of the day? Having the ability to have patience for those results to materialize has got to be one of the toughest skills.
Steffan Surdek: Yes. And at the same time, you train people as to how they treat you. So if you jump in, in this new role, because you got a promotion, and now, you know, you're always on the go, tuk, tuk, tuk, trying to answer what people are asking of you, and you're not training them as to how you would like them to interact with you.
Scott Raven: Right,
Steffan Surdek: then you're, you're just going to end up burning yourself up or driving yourself crazy.
Scott Raven: I learned that lesson the hard way in terms of being too much the people pleaser, and then I got to the point that my cup was empty and I could please no one. So that is very spot on. And let's go ahead and move to that final skill of a co creative leader that you feel is critically important to be effective.
Fostering Learning by Doing
Steffan Surdek: So the last key skill is learning to foster learning by doing. So sometimes, you know, we end up in analysis paralysis. We'll talk about something, you know, we'll talk about it, talk about it, talk about it, and just never do it. And in the meantime, how much time are we wasting?
Scott Raven: mhm,
Steffan Surdek: And there's two parts to fostering this learning by doing.
Sometimes you may notice that your team wants to move forward and try some stuff, but it's you as a leader that has both feet on the break. So now it's, it's you that has to learn to let go, um, and to have to be able to see this mindset and play with this mindset in action. Um, the other part of it is now your team is paralyzed, how do you help them move and take small steps and take small bites?
and just make forward progress and work iteratively. iteratively towards the problem that they're trying to solve.
Scott Raven: mhm, and that could be one of the biggest challenges when either you as a leader or your team are engaged in active procrastination where something is going on internally where you are physically stopping yourself from doing something, whether it be a fear or doubt, anxiety, and being able to overcome that barrier.
Steffan Surdek: Yeah, being able to move past that is, is so important. And sometimes it's about helping your team. Like, you know, when I do transformation projects, I tend to do 90 day plans with the leaders that I work with. And often what I tell them is, in 90 days, where do we want to be? How does that look? And once we have clarity around that, then it's like, what do we need to do to get there? And I often tell them the first 90 day plan isn't about succeeding in the 90 day plan. It's about figuring out what we need to do for a 90 day plan to be sustainable. Do we need a regular weekly meeting? Do we need, how big of a task do we need to plan? Uh, how do we need to help each other? How do we need to make this clear?
How much is enough? How much is not too much? How much is too little? All these are things that you need to learn along the way.
Scott Raven: Absolutely. And sometimes learning is just doing the reps, right? The 70 percent of all adult learning is by doing. And if you don't do the reps, you're probably not going to learn it.
Steffan Surdek: Yeah, you're reminding me of someone, um, that I was teaching once, how to facilitate a meeting. And I had helped this person do all their prep and get ready for what they needed to do. And when it came time, uh, was a day or two before execution, I went to see the person. And I said, so are you ready? And the person says, yeah, I'm, I'm ready.
I'm pretty sure. So I said, okay, let's go. I took the person, brought them to a conference room, and I said, Start facilitating your meeting. I'm watching.
Scott Raven: hmm. Mm hmm.
Steffan Surdek: And the person said, What? I said, Just start. I want to see it. And you know, what the person came to realize in the exercise was that they couldn't figure out their words initially.
So they were thinking before talking. And you know, I'd be there saying, Well, no, you're not present right now. You're like distracted. You seem to be thinking about something else. No, you're not ready, because no, this is not ready. And I do it a bit on purpose to destabilize. the person a bit, and then I go, okay, start again.
Start again.
Scott Raven: Right.
Steffan Surdek: And in the end, what I told this person was, you know, it may seem like nothing, but when hockey players, professional hockey players, are in practice and they're shooting pucks at the net, it still counts. still shots that it's, it's muscle memory that they're developing.
Scott Raven: Exactly.
Steffan Surdek: And, you know, by the end of the session, what the person felt was, wow, this is fluid now.
And I said, yes, because now you're not thinking.
Scott Raven: That's right.
Steffan Surdek: thought about everything you wanted to say. Now you're just.
Scott Raven: That's right. I mean, I have this conversation with my son all the time as he's going through his own baseball journey. And I remind him that in about three to four weeks, pitchers and catchers and teams are all going to report to spring training and that they've been doing this all their life and that.
The muscle memory is as good as it is for anybody, but they still begin with the basics for a couple of weeks in terms of reminding the combination of body and mind how to work together.
Steffan Surdek: So as a leader, how do you do that? How do you create those spaces where you're just practicing and it doesn't necessarily count, but it does count because you're getting the reps in.
Scott Raven: Yeah, that's true. That is true. Well, Stefan, this has been a wonderful conversation as we begin to close, right? I always do a Tip of the Cap to Randy Posh and his book, The Last Lecture, which closes with the concept of a head fake. And in that book, he said that everything that he had talked about was a message for his kids.
As we reflect on this episode, the head fake that I want to put in here, that I'd like you to. Uh, give your guidance on is all of these lessons that we have talked about for being a co creative leader, particularly in a professional workspace.
Applying Leadership Lessons to Personal Life
Scott Raven: How can we apply it to our personal life? How can we apply it to the job outside the job, if you will, so that we are living our most fulfilled life?
Steffan Surdek: So you know, when I talk about co creative leadership, uh, I'm looking right now at the cover of my book and I say, you know, transform your leadership everywhere in your life. I see leadership as something that you do as a parent, as a community leader, as a person your life. So, you know, I use co creative leadership in the lens of business because it's a way for me to generate money.
It's a way for me to generate a living. But this is actually the way I live my life. And this is what I do with my kids. This is what I do with my spouse. This is how I act like this in my family. So all of this applies and the great thing is family is a beautiful place to practice. Because the stakes are different.
Um, you know, in a way, the stakes are lower, and in a way, you have more stakes, and the stakes are higher. Because these are the people that you care about. So you're going to be careful in how you do this. Um, final story. There was a leader that I worked with that was struggling with their leadership. And I gave them a book, The Gift of Imperfection, by Brene Brown.
And the person said, wasn't ready to be coached in the business arena. But when I gave them the book, the person read it three times. in the weekend. And the person said, Hey, I think I can see some tricks here that help me with my relationship with my daughter. So I said, cool. So I coached the person with their daughter.
That's where I focused, nothing else. And eventually I saw something where I had breached the topic with his daughter that kind of reproduced at work. And then I said, when we addressed that issue, I said, Well, if it was your daughter, what would you do? that's when the person saw the bridge. And that's when the person developed, like, the interest in applying these same techniques at work.
So, home is a beautiful place to practice. If you just give yourself a chance, if you tell your family, I'm trying this, just help me out. If I'm not doing this right, tell me. Just tell me.
Scott Raven: Let me extend on that with one final question, which is Often when I'm talking to fathers that I give them the scenario that their kids are listening to this podcast sometime in the future and I ask them what is the one thing they want their kids to take away from this conversation. What would that be for you?
Steffan Surdek: Now, you're gonna laugh at this, but my kids probably heard a lot of the stories that I've told you on this show. They know a lot of this. So, you know, what I love about my kids, especially my son, my son has a way of holding me accountable
Scott Raven: There
Steffan Surdek: to what I say, what I do, in a way that no one else has the courage to do.
And he's just 20 years old. I find it magical the way he
Scott Raven: There you go. You've raised a future young leader. That's phenomenal.
Steffan Surdek: Yes.
Scott Raven: There you go.
Final Thoughts and Takeaways
Scott Raven: How can people learn more about you, Stefan? How can they start to, you know, get to know you? Obviously you have your book, The Way of the Co Creative Leader. You have your company, uh, with the solutions that you provide. What else can they, how else can they get in touch with you?
Steffan Surdek: Well, on my company blog, I have over 200 articles, videos, podcasts, around leadership that I've been a part of through the past 12 years. So I have like a, a great inventory of, of content out there already. You can find me on LinkedIn where I post, uh, on a semi regular basis. And, uh, always feel free to reach out.
You can connect to me on LinkedIn. Send me a DM. Tell me that you, you heard my episode with Scott and you'd like to chat. And, you know, I don't need to sell you anything. I'm more interested in what did you get out of the podcast. So
Scott Raven: and we will put all of those links on the show notes for this episode. This has been a phenomenal episode, Stefan. Any final words before we close out here?
Steffan Surdek: I think the biggest thing that leaders need to remember is that you don't need to be perfect. Um, you know, people feel that they need to maintain this image of, of semi perfection, get things right, know all the problems, have all the solutions. But really, you have a team around you that's willing to help you if you just ask them, if you're willing to give them the space.
if you're willing to allow them to step up. So, you know, stop trying to wear this Iron Man armor and, and try something different and see what it opens up
Scott Raven: You know what, vulnerability and authenticity are superpowers in my humble opinion. And being able to demonstrate that versus the I am Mr. Perfect can go a long way. So phenomenal final message. Phenomenal conversation, Stefan. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast to all of my listeners. Thank you so much for your time in terms of listening to this conversation, and I hope you take away the key lessons and put them into action.
As always, Please make sure to subscribe and share with your community where you feel they would get value from this. And we will see you on the next episode. Take care, y'all.
Outro
Scott Raven: Thank you for joining me on The Corvus Effect. To access today's show notes, resources, and links mentioned in this episode, visit www.thecorvuseffect.com While you're there, you'll find links to our free tools and resources to evaluate where you currently stand versus your aspirations with personalized recommendations for action. If you found value in today's episode, Please take a moment to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share with those who may benefit from it. You won't want to miss future conversations that could transform your approach to leadership and life. Join me next episode as we continue our journey towards building lasting legacies that matter. Remember, it's time to soar towards your legacy.